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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2018 8:58:50 GMT -6
I was wondering who you think are the best fusion musicians under 30 more or less these days. Once upon a time, we would have thought of a guy at 30 as having a significant career (Stern, Metheny, Jaco, Holdsworth etc all had made a significant statement by then) but I was noting the other day that it isn't easy to come up with names of people that age who are playing great and making a mark such that we all know who they are.
So, whom would you cite? I'll accept up to age 35 perhaps but I'd prefer younger and please no people in their late 30s and beyond for purposes of this thread.
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Post by GeorgeX on Aug 27, 2018 13:20:40 GMT -6
Wow...this is tough because I don't usually know how old guys are. It's guesswork.
However, some I do know that qualify:
Cameron Graves
Ronald Bruner Jr.
Beka Gochiashvili
Mike Mitchell
Yuya Komoguchi
Mohini Dey
Senri Kawaguchi
Tigran Hamasyan, Andre Nieri, and Daisuke Kunita are just the other side of 30
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Post by xmiles on Aug 27, 2018 13:42:38 GMT -6
Not a very long list!
The only name I can add is Alex Munk.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2018 14:23:40 GMT -6
Wow...this is tough because I don't usually know how old guys are. It's guesswork. However, some I do know that qualify: Cameron Graves Ronald Bruner Jr. Beka Gochiashvili Mike Mitchell Yuya Komoguchi Mohini Dey Senri Kawaguchi Tigran Hamasyan, Andre Nieri, and Daisuke Kunita are just the other side of 30 Thanks for writing. Actually most of the people you mention are 30 and up; Graves is 36 and Bruner Jr. is 34. Yuya is 30 and the other 3 as you mention are older than 30 (then there are Mohini and Senri who are noteworthy more because of their age and gender; no one is looking to them to lead the way so to speak).
Beka is in his early 20s as is Mike Mitchell, However (and I don't want to insist too much on this) I don't really see any of these cats as being heavyweights in the scheme of things (good players but not certainly not guys like Chambers, Vinnie, Stern, Chick, Metheny, Brecker etc). I meant guys who are standard bearers, not just solid footsoldiers.
In fact, I imagine even most fusion fans can't name any of these people and may only have seen them in a youtube clip or a forwarded video. I think there has been a shift in a variety of ways.
My favorite 'younger' guitarist is Nir Felder whom I think was the last guy to actually turn heads on a somewhat bigger level (he is 35 as well) and I suppose Hadrien Feraud on bass at 34 if I had to pick someone.
Alex Sill is a younger guy in the Holdsworthian tradition in his early 20s and bassist Evan Marien is in his early 30s, Henrik Linder is 32 and Romain Labaye is 30 to cite some other guys of some possible interest (still pretty different from what I had in mind). People post videos from Matteo Mancuso quite a bit and he's young but mostly just of technical interest. Chad Lefkowitz Brown on sax reminds one a bit of Mike Brecker in some ways and is 28 and saxophonist Noah Preminger is 32. I hoped to hear more from guitarist Jim Grandcamp (with Bireli and Magma) but barely anyone outside of France (and not so much within it) even knows who he is.
What's interesting is that if you go back and look at what it was like when Holdsworth, Vinnie, Brecker, Stern et al emerged, they had way more buzz a lot earlier on. We all quickly knew who the next guys to follow up were too (Henderson, Krantz, Gambale, Gary Novak, Gary Willis, Dominique Di Piazza). I'd say from guys in their 30s on down it has really shifted dramatically and especially those younger than that.
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Post by GeorgeX on Aug 27, 2018 15:25:20 GMT -6
I would disagree that most fusion fans can't name those people, outside of Yuya. The first 4 all play with Stanley, who in addition to being one of the longest standing names, also plays more dates than almost anyone in the genre. (Stanley routinely announces Graves age as 27, on stage. That's what tripped me up) Now Nir Felder, him I would believe no one knows.
I'm with you on Youtube being a driver for a lot of this stuff now. I think Dey is as well known as Feraud, and she has scarcely recorded anything that you can buy.
Another guy I forgot; Tom Ibarra
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2018 15:45:14 GMT -6
I would disagree that most fusion fans can't name those people, outside of Yuya. The first 4 all play with Stanley, who in addition to being one of the longest standing names, also plays more dates than almost anyone in the genre. (Stanley routinely announces Graves age as 27, on stage. That's what tripped me up) Now Nir Felder, him I would believe no one knows. I'm with you on Youtube being a driver for a lot of this stuff now. I think Dey is as well known as Feraud, and she has scarcely recorded anything that you can buy. Another guy I forgot; Tom Ibarra
Among musicians, Nir is considered the real deal. Stanley's guys are solid but unexceptional and Stanley's music is fairly weak sauce. None of the real guys is discussing them really. Ask Mike Stern or Wayne Krantz for a name and Nir will come up, not Graves or guys like that. Sure Stanley hired them and I don't really want to insist on this too much but there's no planet on which Graves or Yuya are top level players like the guys I am citing. I have studied and played with guys like Willis, Henderson, Stern etc and believe me, they aren't checking out Stanley's band or the other people you mentioned.
Fusion super geeks know them because they (you are a good example as am I as a sort of pastime) know everything vaguely in the genre and are hungry for it but they aren't the next gen of happening guys. Yuya is practically ripping off old Allen Hinds and Lukather licks note for note not terribly creatively and musicians can hear that. I still can dig it to some extent because I like the genre but he's never going to get cats like Henderson or Hinds thinking he's the next cat in line.
Ibarra is a nice kid like Mancuso but I hope you can hear he's a million miles from being a heavyweight. Dey is not known to people like Chick or Stern and with good reason; she's cute and young but she's not even remotely in the league of players like Feraud or Dane Alderson or before that Willis, Patitucci, Tom Kennedy etc. She can't really even play jazz per se, she's more like a metal shredder with some funk chops.
All these names are convincing me it's even worse than I thought unfortunately.
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Post by shadow on Aug 27, 2018 19:16:42 GMT -6
How old are the guys in Consider The Source
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Post by GeorgeX on Aug 27, 2018 20:04:09 GMT -6
Dey is playing with Stern actually, on the new Dewa Budjana.
You're expanding your parameters on this as you go though. It went from best fusion musicians under 30, to a variety of other qualifiers like bandleader/standard bearer potential, who's a heavyweight, who's original, and who do other musos like. Other musos don't buy records or pay to go to shows. That would be fans. Players like Chick and Stern are often out of touch with who's hot on the scene, using the same guys over and over, and consulting others when they're looking for someone fresh. And a lot of them love to tout players in interviews that other people don't name
And yeah, I'm not wildly impressed with Ibarra, but as you mentioned, it's a pretty dire crop out there, to just fit into the age parameter. If you want to include all this other stuff? I fully concede there is no one who ticks off all those boxes.
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Post by GeorgeX on Aug 27, 2018 21:58:29 GMT -6
More food for thought. How much of this is hindsight? You're calling Krantz a heavyweight now, but what had he done by 30?
No solo records and, as far as I can tell, no recorded sideman work. Fusion seems to lend to late bloomers, career-wise.
Stern had BS&T, Cobham, and a couple Miles records, right? All I know of for Henderson, pre-30, is the
83 tour with Ponty. I think Willis had only done Spears and Metal Fatigue. Di Piazza was an unknown who had played on just
two records. Gambale had only really done a couple CCEB records, a couple solo records, and a Ponty tour.
Most of the guys who did break early are either from Miles University, or from one of those direct descendants, it seems.
I dunno. Interesting topic though.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2018 12:17:47 GMT -6
Dey is playing with Stern actually, on the new Dewa Budjana. You're expanding your parameters on this as you go though. It went from best fusion musicians under 30, to a variety of other qualifiers like bandleader/standard bearer potential, who's a heavyweight, who's original, and who do other musos like. Other musos don't buy records or pay to go to shows. That would be fans. Players like Chick and Stern are often out of touch with who's hot on the scene, using the same guys over and over, and consulting others when they're looking for someone fresh. And a lot of them love to tout players in interviews that other people don't name And yeah, I'm not wildly impressed with Ibarra, but as you mentioned, it's a pretty dire crop out there, to just fit into the age parameter. If you want to include all this other stuff? I fully concede there is no one who ticks off all those boxes.
Dewa Budjana is another guy not even remotely in the big leagues and Stern is a super nice guy who will play on anything for a few bucks (surely you have seen his list of sessions?). He doesn't consider any of those people to be major cats. I don't want to share private conversations without consent but he thinks of people like Koichi Yabori (another player with whom he has played on a session) in a totally different way than he does Henderson or Wayne Krantz. The only younger guy sort of playing fusion whom the real cats did take notice of recently was Nir Felder and if you just hang at the 55 or the Baked Potato and talk with musicians, that will be clear to you.
When I speak of heavyweights, I mean a guy who is clearly able to play changes really well and with a bit of his own take on them. Composition chops would be even more significant. 'Best musicians' under 30 should is intended to highlight such players and when I was thinking about it, I realized I was struggling to come up with anyone like that unlike in the past.
Best musician, heavyweight etc it's the same same thing as being a standard bearer, it's just another way of saying the same thing. These are the players who are the heavy hitters.
I know Mike well and have played with him and many others. I was sharing my thoughts on the topic because this has come up in conversations with players like Henderson and Mike where they ask me about younger players since they know I am pretty encyclopedic (and I have taught at a few of the major jazz and fusion schools and hubs so I come into contact with a lot of players). When it comes right down to it, both they and I know that it's harder and harder to name anyone of note. And as should be clear by now, it's not because I am unfamiliar with them either (unlike many who stopped following younger players).
Guys like Henderson do have knowledge of younger players; I have discussed some with him and people give him stuff all the time in addition to seeing all the players through his clinics around the world and at MI for decades; players come looking for him actually. He can barely remember most of it though because frankly, it's almost a guarantee that it is not good enough to warrant the attention of a player like Scott.
The thing is, apart from the interest as a curiosity and just sharing because we love this music, realistically, none of these younger players is really at the level where I can say to the real cats, check out so and so, he will blow you away like Scott did to Joe Diorio, Steve Morse and Jeff Berlin in the early 80s or Stern did to Billy Cobham in the late 70s or Holdsworth did to Benson, McLaughlin or Liebman or Vinnie did to Bozzio immediately.
It didn't take 10 years, it took a year or two in the clubs in LA and NY (and to a lesser extent Boston) for the other heavy hitters to say "whoa." Benson's people took him to see Stern very early on as well as Holdsworth and he freaked about both. Morse checked out Henderson and raved about him as did everyone else who saw him open for Holdsworth with Berlin's band in the early 80s. Gambale freaked out Diorio and Corea immediately. They were all young players then and clearly with a style, chops and a serious bad ass musical persona.
The guys you and I could cite today are solid, good players in many cases but not someone I would take up 10 minutes of Scott's time in conversation with him like I might have when Krantz came out (and yea, in the 80s, Krantz was already turning major heads) or the way Scott noticed Gambale or others.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2018 12:25:39 GMT -6
How old are the guys in Consider The Source They have been around since the early 2000s and are in their mid 30s. Do you really think of them as some of the best younger fusion players today though either way?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2018 12:35:59 GMT -6
More food for thought. How much of this is hindsight? You're calling Krantz a heavyweight now, but what had he done by 30? No solo records and, as far as I can tell, no recorded sideman work. Fusion seems to lend to late bloomers, career-wise. Stern had BS&T, Cobham, and a couple Miles records, right? All I know of for Henderson, pre-30, is the 83 tour with Ponty. I think Willis had only done Spears and Metal Fatigue. Di Piazza was an unknown who had played on just two records. Gambale had only really done a couple CCEB records, a couple solo records, and a Ponty tour. Most of the guys who did break early are either from Miles University, or from one of those direct descendants, it seems. I dunno. Interesting topic though. I answered you a bit in the other post but again, by the time Henderson and Krantz were around 30, every major player on the scene in LA and NY knew they were bad asses with their own styles. Scott was freaking out players regularly in the early 80s and his gig with Berlin was legendary among musicians. Stern was very well known before the Miles gig among musicians and definitely after that of course.
They had a buzz which was very clear (Di Piazza did as well in Europe playing including his great work with Louis Winsberg, a real player too and JP Como, also of Sixun, having played with them already in the late 80s; everyone on the Paris scene knew Di Piazza was a mofo). I am not talking just about records here which, though it is of note, is not the same thing exactly.
I am talking about what musicians on the ground knew and were saying. The impact they had was clear. We all knew who the new kings were and it wasn't in hindsight.
Who are these people right now? It's very hard to come up with a credible name with guys in their late 20s let's say which is NOT that young to show some signs.
Musicians talk a lot among themselves about players so even a relatively unknown player like Steve Topping was on Henderson's radar quickly because he is a bad ass and worth knowing. James Muller is another one who also was very quickly, both without many recordings at all.
But after that, not too many guys get mentioned (Tim Miller to some extent, Oz Noy, Gergo Borlai). There has been a shift.
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