|
|
Post by xmiles on Aug 13, 2019 3:06:22 GMT -6
What do you guys think about Santana? I never considered it fusion, but not a day goes by without someone posting something. Nothing I've heard from him is fusion. However, I haven't heard a whole lot beyond the famous stuff. If any of it is, I'm guessing it isn't much, so characterizing him as a fusion player, like they seem to there, sure doesn't work for me. As I have said I am not going to get into an argument about what fusion is and isn't (I like almost everything Miles Davis produced but how much of it is fusion?) but I suggest you try Love Devotion Surrender, Illuminations and The Swing of Delight and see what you think. |
|
|
|
Post by GeorgeX on Aug 13, 2019 6:38:02 GMT -6
Nothing I've heard from him is fusion. However, I haven't heard a whole lot beyond the famous stuff. If any of it is, I'm guessing it isn't much, so characterizing him as a fusion player, like they seem to there, sure doesn't work for me. As I have said I am not going to get into an argument about what fusion is and isn't (I like almost everything Miles Davis produced but how much of it is fusion?) but I suggest you try Love Devotion Surrender, Illuminations and The Swing of Delight and see what you think. I will, though I don't doubt your assessment at all. I just haven't heard enough to back the play of what was going on in that group. Even if all 3 are genuine fusion, does that make him a fusion player though? Particularly given they're just 3 records, 40 years in the rear view mirror? I guess you could equate it to Jeff Beck. His two big albums read fusion to me, but not much else I've ever heard him do does, and I don't think of him as fusion guy, but a rock player who dabbled in fusion once upon a time. His soloing doesn't sound like he's fluent in jazz, and neither does Santana's. Kind of like Macalpine in Cab. |
|
|
|
Post by xmiles on Aug 13, 2019 6:59:13 GMT -6
As I have said I am not going to get into an argument about what fusion is and isn't (I like almost everything Miles Davis produced but how much of it is fusion?) but I suggest you try Love Devotion Surrender, Illuminations and The Swing of Delight and see what you think. I will, though I don't doubt your assessment at all. I just haven't heard enough to back the play of what was going on in that group. Even if all 3 are genuine fusion, does that make him a fusion player though? Particularly given they're just 3 records, 40 years in the rear view mirror? I guess you could equate it to Jeff Beck. His two big albums read fusion to me, but not much else I've ever heard him do does, and I don't think of him as fusion guy, but a rock player who dabbled in fusion once upon a time. His soloing doesn't sound like he's fluent in jazz, and neither does Santana's. Kind of like Macalpine in Cab. Pretty much how I feel about it George. I am a big fan of Beck but would agree with your assessment of him in terms of style - a bit like Hendrix in a way. A fantastically talented guitarist but not a fusion player. |
|
|
|
Post by funkle on Aug 13, 2019 9:02:58 GMT -6
I will, though I don't doubt your assessment at all. I just haven't heard enough to back the play of what was going on in that group. Even if all 3 are genuine fusion, does that make him a fusion player though? Particularly given they're just 3 records, 40 years in the rear view mirror? I guess you could equate it to Jeff Beck. His two big albums read fusion to me, but not much else I've ever heard him do does, and I don't think of him as fusion guy, but a rock player who dabbled in fusion once upon a time. His soloing doesn't sound like he's fluent in jazz, and neither does Santana's. Kind of like Macalpine in Cab. Pretty much how I feel about it George. I am a big fan of Beck but would agree with your assessment of him in terms of style - a bit like Hendrix in a way. A fantastically talented guitarist but not a fusion player. Agreed. To me it’s all about whether, and how they apply jazz harmony. Santana and Beck sort of steamroller through changes sticking to blues harmony & vocabulary. Landau acknowledges the modulations, but sticks with blues vocabulary. Over a static groove, a blues rock player will stay blues or diatonic, while a good jazz or fusion player will introduce their own implied modulations. Blues rock players stick with what is familiar, but fusion players complicate it, and make it a harmonic exploration. Scott Henderson talked in depth about this in a Guitar Wank episode. |
|
|
|
Post by funkle on Aug 13, 2019 10:28:13 GMT -6
to Jeff Beck. His two big albums Three, right? Wired, Blow by Blow and There and Back. |
|
|
|
Post by GeorgeX on Aug 13, 2019 11:54:09 GMT -6
Three, right? Wired, Blow by Blow and There and Back. I wasn't aware people thought as highly of There and Back as they do the other two. |
|
|
|
Post by funkle on Aug 13, 2019 12:53:20 GMT -6
Three, right? Wired, Blow by Blow and There and Back. I wasn't aware people thought as highly of There and Back as they do the other two. I think they do. While the first two were funk tinged and maybe more jazz foundation, There and Back with Jan Hammer's pitch wheeling solos & Eastern sounding modes may have helped lay the groundwork for the harder edged 80s sound. The first two were more Barney Miller, while the 3rd was high tech space fusion. I can hear influences in Tribal Tech and Alan Murphy's album comes to mind. Listen to Jeff Beck's The Pump, then the Players 50,50 - more than a little similarity. Also, I think this was the album were Beck had become obsessed with the sound of Hammer's pitch wheel, and was trying to emulate that sound with the whammy. Holdsworth & Steve Kahn were doing something similar, but this may have been where this approach started. You hear it now with Yabori & Raduli leading in or trailing out of a note with the whammy. |
|
|
|
Post by xmiles on Aug 14, 2019 5:37:25 GMT -6
I wasn't aware people thought as highly of There and Back as they do the other two. I think they do. While the first two were funk tinged and maybe more jazz foundation, There and Back with Jan Hammer's pitch wheeling solos & Eastern sounding modes may have helped lay the groundwork for the harder edged 80s sound. The first two were more Barney Miller, while the 3rd was high tech space fusion. I can hear influences in Tribal Tech and Alan Murphy's album comes to mind. Listen to Jeff Beck's The Pump, then the Players 50,50 - more than a little similarity. Also, I think this was the album were Beck had become obsessed with the sound of Hammer's pitch wheel, and was trying to emulate that sound with the whammy. Holdsworth & Steve Kahn were doing something similar, but this may have been where this approach started. You hear it now with Yabori & Raduli leading in or trailing out of a note with the whammy. You make some interesting points funkle but I was never a big fan of There and Back myself. |
|
|
|
Post by funkle on Aug 14, 2019 11:23:47 GMT -6
Sorry, I just have to share one more inane comment from the group. This was in response to objections over posting outside genres: "I can't believe how close minded some people are. I would have expected more from a fusion group".
|
|
|
|
Post by GeorgeX on Aug 14, 2019 11:47:01 GMT -6
That makes no sense. What does it have to do with being open minded? Private groups are almost always topic based. If it's not on topic,
then it's clearly off topic, which is a no-no on pretty much every topic based group ever created.
|
|
